The Admiral
Well-Known Member
I like Antec PSU's tbh. They have pretty good quality control.nelots said:
Gaming computer???!!!
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The Admiral
Well-Known Member
Really? That's 64W/GB. So 256W for a 4GB stick of RAM? That sounds a little absurd...timewilltell said:
Trigger Happy
Moderator
The wattage isn't the only thing to consider, the efficiency of the PSU you get matters too. If you really want to get specific, go look at the actual Watts needed to power each device and then give yourself a little headroom. A PSU is a lot like a power station, you will probably only deal with normal operating voltages for most of the time but at peak times you need to make sure it can deliver. Looking at the maximum Watts needed for each device will show you just how much you need should everything run at 100%. This is where efficiency comes into it too. If you get a massive power supply but it is craptastic, you will just pay lots of money in electricity for a device that is drawing too much energy when it doesn't (shouldn't) need to.
If you want to get technical enough, check out this link that does calculations for you http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine
Cheers
If you want to get technical enough, check out this link that does calculations for you http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine
Cheers
Key phrase is 'on load' or 'full load.' In reality your box will hardly reach that unless you plan to encode full HD videos 24/7?timewilltell said:
Majority of the time your box will utilize < 50% so you're suggestion is still overkill imo.
P.S - Monitors draw power from PSU's now?
Death_Reincarnated
Well-Known Member
So much fail where do I even start...............[/quote:1d6rvg66]nelots said:
So if I have 10K to spend...because I can like you suggested...then I should buy all the newest and best parts out there...yeah right....your a douche bag full stop. I'm gonna buy a 10K comp just so I can play games; its like buying a toaster but you dont eat your bread toasted. /FF
As for Moore's law... technology is reaching the limit but the law itself has widespread use still to this date.
In regards to PSU wattage: Ever seen, for example, advertised home theatre systems which say 'a total of 1300W of power!'. Well thats not the actuall power, its the PMPO (peak max power output). In reality the reall power output is square-root of that value. The same applies to lots of devices, even computer parts....just be carefull that the values you read on websites are not PMPO. You really should be adding values of (PMPO/square-root)=actuall power. Dont forget that heat=loss of energy=/= 100% power use and efficiency. The most likely case is that you will utilise 60-80% of the PSUs power supply when you are trying to run the PC at max. Its just not possible to run the parts at 100% and not take into account several factors such as temperature.
So I'm a douche bag for buying quality parts opposed to filling the box with last years bits thats been sitting in some random warehouse in the burbs for the past year or so?Death_Reincarnated said:
If you have a 10k budget then spend it otherwise your budget wouldn't be 10k but either way I'd rather be a douche bag than a tight arse so WAY TO GO CONSUMER ADVOCATE!
So by your maffs for 1300W, the actual power output is:Death_Reincarnated said:
(1300/sqrt1300) ??? THATS A WHOPPING 36.05W OF POWER!!!
I'm no genius but that's just wrong.
The labeled Wattage on the PSU is the max output with efficiency factored in already so your 60-80% theory is wrong for mid-top end PSU's as long as they're run at below 40 degrees celcius.Death_Reincarnated said:
Eg. Coolermaster Pro Gold 1200W is capable of churning 1200W's of power at load, its max output is 1440W but since it can only run at 90% efficiency they can only be allowed to label it 1200W instead of 1440W.
Seriously D_R quit confusing people with your dribble.
Trigger Happy
Moderator
Ummm...a number divided by it's square root gives you its square root again...Death_Reincarnated said:
Have you done maths before death?
Cheers
The Admiral
Well-Known Member
I concur.Trigger Happy said:
ok
peak power (peak power over a defined time period)
rms (root mean square) also referred to as continuous power
pmpo (peak music power output)
pmpo has nothing to do with this, this is not audio.
if you flatten the loud pedal on your 1992 corolla and leave it flat to the floor, how long do you expect the engine to keep going without blowing up??
same with power supplies, you don't want the thing running at its max capacity, it will wear out quicker, it is less efficient, it generates more heat and MOST importantly your amperage is fluctuating to much.
YES efficiency comes into it
YES RMS rating comes into it
YES PEAK power comes into it
YES amperage on the 12v rails and 5v rails come into it
and
YES you DO allow for what your system total usage CAN be (max wattage at 100% full load)
if you work out that your system is going to need 500w for most of the time but at full load it will be needing/using 800w you DO NOT go and buy a 500 or 600w power supply
you buy an 800w or preferably 850w power supply (RMS RATING NOT PEAK) this way your psu is not going to fry itself inside 12 months (or less) but also so that your psu is always running at its most efficient power output and its output is stable (Stable power is a crucial requirement for stable computing).
ANY low end pc now days should have a minimum of around 600w rms, any gaming system should have at least 750w rms, any high end gaming pc should have at least 1000w rms
also aim at a psu that has over 80% efficiency or better if you can find it
and what ever you do don't ever get a job with energy Australia, i get enough black outs as it is thanks!!
oh and yeah was meant to say monitors, as in system monitors (like republic of gamers lcd poster) usually running off mother board using very little but every bit counts
peak power (peak power over a defined time period)
rms (root mean square) also referred to as continuous power
pmpo (peak music power output)
pmpo has nothing to do with this, this is not audio.
if you flatten the loud pedal on your 1992 corolla and leave it flat to the floor, how long do you expect the engine to keep going without blowing up??
same with power supplies, you don't want the thing running at its max capacity, it will wear out quicker, it is less efficient, it generates more heat and MOST importantly your amperage is fluctuating to much.
YES efficiency comes into it
YES RMS rating comes into it
YES PEAK power comes into it
YES amperage on the 12v rails and 5v rails come into it
and
YES you DO allow for what your system total usage CAN be (max wattage at 100% full load)
if you work out that your system is going to need 500w for most of the time but at full load it will be needing/using 800w you DO NOT go and buy a 500 or 600w power supply
you buy an 800w or preferably 850w power supply (RMS RATING NOT PEAK) this way your psu is not going to fry itself inside 12 months (or less) but also so that your psu is always running at its most efficient power output and its output is stable (Stable power is a crucial requirement for stable computing).
ANY low end pc now days should have a minimum of around 600w rms, any gaming system should have at least 750w rms, any high end gaming pc should have at least 1000w rms
also aim at a psu that has over 80% efficiency or better if you can find it
and what ever you do don't ever get a job with energy Australia, i get enough black outs as it is thanks!!
oh and yeah was meant to say monitors, as in system monitors (like republic of gamers lcd poster) usually running off mother board using very little but every bit counts
The Admiral
Well-Known Member
I still think 256W for 4GB RAM sounds dodgy.
Death_Reincarnated
Well-Known Member
Well at least one person (timewilltell) understood the lingo I was using with square-root. PMPO/Square-root basically means RMS but in the lingo terms thats how electricians/physicists and other experts in the field say it - its just quicker. When da f**k did i ever say that RMS=PMPO divided by its root square? OMFG seriously /FF especially you nelots. I know my maths so please dont lecture me. Not my fault you dont know the basics and maths...otherwise you would not question what I wrote you would know what I was on about...like timewilltell knew. Just shows that only one person has knowledge about this issue.
I agree with timewilltell in regards to getting a power supply with larger wattage (RMS) than what it requires to run the system especially if you are going to strees the PSU constantly. You do not want to run the PSU at its max (or close to) capacity all the time because it will degrade its life very fast. BUT the question you have to ask yourself is wether you really require that extra wattage on a daily basis and what kind of PC parts you have to evaluate what PSU wattage you need.
Here is some reading:
http://www.pcpower.com/technology/power_usage/
http://www.behardware.com/articles/670- ... ption.html
http://www.matthewb.id.au/power/compute ... lator.html
As for buying top end parts even though you have the cash...youre an idiot to do so (and this is aimed specifically at you nelots). Quality parts does not equate to TOP END parts like you assumed i said so, which i did not. In terms of PC parts youre better of, in many cases, to buy "last years" parts than fresh ones on the market since in couple of months they will become as you say...parts which sit in a random warehouse in the burbs. Which I wrote before yet you failed to understand it.
And as for PSUs being labeled the way you (nelots)have specified.....they are always labeled RMS except like timewilltell said, tha maximum the PSU can offer OF RMS wattage at full load. So that 'coolmaster pro gold 1200' can offer MAXIMUM of 1200W with the efficiency taken into account at full load..which does not equate to 1440W like you said. Since this particaulr PSU is rated '80plus' it basically states that it can practically generate 90% of its maximum RMS power at full load which assuming it can have 100% efficiency then this equates to some 1330W. Now look at what I found (http://www.kitguru.net/components/power ... -review/4/) this websited basically runs a test and what do you know at full load they manage 1321W. In actuality taking the efficiency into account (of 88.5%) this value drops down to 1204W. I seriously dont know where you got 1440W max power output..check your maths or better yet stop dribbling bobbla.
Some more reading for those interested.
http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6663
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS
I agree with timewilltell in regards to getting a power supply with larger wattage (RMS) than what it requires to run the system especially if you are going to strees the PSU constantly. You do not want to run the PSU at its max (or close to) capacity all the time because it will degrade its life very fast. BUT the question you have to ask yourself is wether you really require that extra wattage on a daily basis and what kind of PC parts you have to evaluate what PSU wattage you need.
Here is some reading:
http://www.pcpower.com/technology/power_usage/
http://www.behardware.com/articles/670- ... ption.html
http://www.matthewb.id.au/power/compute ... lator.html
As for buying top end parts even though you have the cash...youre an idiot to do so (and this is aimed specifically at you nelots). Quality parts does not equate to TOP END parts like you assumed i said so, which i did not. In terms of PC parts youre better of, in many cases, to buy "last years" parts than fresh ones on the market since in couple of months they will become as you say...parts which sit in a random warehouse in the burbs. Which I wrote before yet you failed to understand it.
YOU sir fail to read. The PSU can supply 100% of the power BUT only 60-80% on average will be utilised as electrical energy to the parts running at max since the some portion of the energy is dissipated as heat. I never said the PSU cannot generate 100% of its power. This all said, I still havent mentioned how temperature effects efficiency of an electric current passing through circutry and such...I think I can assume that you know its effects...or should I explain this as well.nelots said:
And as for PSUs being labeled the way you (nelots)have specified.....they are always labeled RMS except like timewilltell said, tha maximum the PSU can offer OF RMS wattage at full load. So that 'coolmaster pro gold 1200' can offer MAXIMUM of 1200W with the efficiency taken into account at full load..which does not equate to 1440W like you said. Since this particaulr PSU is rated '80plus' it basically states that it can practically generate 90% of its maximum RMS power at full load which assuming it can have 100% efficiency then this equates to some 1330W. Now look at what I found (http://www.kitguru.net/components/power ... -review/4/) this websited basically runs a test and what do you know at full load they manage 1321W. In actuality taking the efficiency into account (of 88.5%) this value drops down to 1204W. I seriously dont know where you got 1440W max power output..check your maths or better yet stop dribbling bobbla.
Some more reading for those interested.
http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6663
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS
Trigger Happy
Moderator
Heh, I was taking the piss death. The point here is that you need to articulate better, not many people know what RMS is in the first place.
What I find funny is that you and timewilltell say that getting a PSU of 850 for something that MAX takes 500W is the way to go because otherwise it will die faster.
You do understand the fact that it will not consume 500W the whole time, this is what death was debating about just before. So you reckon that getting 850W PSU for a machine that will probably only use about 300ish W of power is the right way to go to ensure it doesn't run too much juice? Come on.
Unless they plan to upgrade and use the same PSU in the future (which really any electronics you just buy new anyway because it will be faster and more efficient anyway) then you only need to get a PSU that has a power output a little bit above the max power output of your system. It will not die because it only pumps out about two thirds of its power most of the time and the other times when it spikes to max, it will still be less than the max PSU.
It doesn't take a guy with an engineering degree to tell you that 850W is overkill for a 500W system, just use common sense.
Cheers
What I find funny is that you and timewilltell say that getting a PSU of 850 for something that MAX takes 500W is the way to go because otherwise it will die faster.
You do understand the fact that it will not consume 500W the whole time, this is what death was debating about just before. So you reckon that getting 850W PSU for a machine that will probably only use about 300ish W of power is the right way to go to ensure it doesn't run too much juice? Come on.
Unless they plan to upgrade and use the same PSU in the future (which really any electronics you just buy new anyway because it will be faster and more efficient anyway) then you only need to get a PSU that has a power output a little bit above the max power output of your system. It will not die because it only pumps out about two thirds of its power most of the time and the other times when it spikes to max, it will still be less than the max PSU.
It doesn't take a guy with an engineering degree to tell you that 850W is overkill for a 500W system, just use common sense.
Cheers
I'm sorry I'm not educated to that degree but eitherway saying Square-root whilst meaning to say RMS is just wrong.Death_Reincarnated said:
Square-root means RMS now??? so the dash '-' equals means?Death_Reincarnated said:
Death_Reincarnated said:
Root square....... what is that??? you inventing new mathematical terminologies now??? I've only heard of the 'Square root' terminology.Death_Reincarnated said:
I'm not the only person to question your logic and timewilltell did not agree with your theory either so are you having fun trying to build some credibility?Death_Reincarnated said:
Suck up much? My thought is his opinion is overkill.Death_Reincarnated said:
Thing is you wont be using your computer at max output all the time, majority of the time it'll be light internet browsing which is using 20%-40% of the entire computers capabilities so why buy such a large PSU? 650W - 750W mid-top end PSU is all thats required for the discussed specs but don't mind me, I've only run similar boxes for a few years without any PSU problems at all and yes they've been used for gaming too.
Did I say buy top end stuff in terms of the market? Learn to read because I specifically stated to buy Top end parts that you can afford as in within ones budget.Death_Reincarnated said:
With your assumption that buying last years parts equal better value for money, I disagree since new parts will be engineered with improvements in capabilities, extra features and operational efficiencies. Those factors alone is enough to justify the purchase of newer parts opposed to last years stuff that may have been incorrectly stored.
Interesting, heres a screenshot of the manufacturers specs on the Coolermaster Silent Pro Gold 1200WDeath_Reincarnated said:
See the max output capacity is circled 1440W, output capacity is 1200W and see efficiency is 90% typical.
Just to explain to you that means, guaranteed maximum output is 1200W where the actual unit is capable of producing 1440W in perfect conditions but consumer goods will not be under perfect conditions thus that kitguru link was only able to pull 1321W.
Anyhow props to you trying to out play me in this, I mean I've only had practical experience with PSU manufacturers in china. That's nothing compared to your theoretical/garage tinkering experience gained through your childhood and schooling/uni work.
ok once again without getting technical, my dig was at the 600w psu, my suggested unit was only a suggestion and yes a little more then what you need for the suggested specs ideal to the suggested specs would be 750w rms, the efficiency stated by manufactures is usually at the rms or rated power (continuous power) the peak power is the absolute highest it was able to output under there test conditions over a given amount of time and may only have been for 3ms, anywhere above the rms rating is usually at a very low efficiency which means a lot of energy is dissipated as heat (losses)
ill clarify on my previous statement, the specs listed would require around 500w normal operating, you should then add 20% for deterioration of components over time which means 600w normal operating (this means net browsing basic tasks), your pc does and will get up to 80% under load, so assume at normal operating it is 60% load that means allow a further 20% for on load, you now need 720w.
the unit i suggested originally is much the same price as a 750w but allows head room for future upgrades.
as for topend stuff, you would be stupid too, wait 3 months after release and get it for half price, in other words buy stuff that is about 3 to 6 months old.
ill clarify on my previous statement, the specs listed would require around 500w normal operating, you should then add 20% for deterioration of components over time which means 600w normal operating (this means net browsing basic tasks), your pc does and will get up to 80% under load, so assume at normal operating it is 60% load that means allow a further 20% for on load, you now need 720w.
the unit i suggested originally is much the same price as a 750w but allows head room for future upgrades.
as for topend stuff, you would be stupid too, wait 3 months after release and get it for half price, in other words buy stuff that is about 3 to 6 months old.
Am I writing this incorrectly or are you guys too stupid to understand "buy top end stuff that you can afford"???timewilltell said:
What I mean is buy the best in your price range, not buy anything that is new release.
Eg - if you had to buy a new monitor and the choice was between a no name Aiwa and a Samsung panel where both specs are similar with a 10% price premium on the Samsung panel, would you still be stupid to choose the Samsung panel over the Aiwa?
Hell switch the Aiwa with Acer or Asus, would you still choose those over Samsung? I highly doubt it especially if price is within your budget.
i would buy asus over samsung, i would definitely buy lg over samsung.
and yes you would buy the best you can afford but what me and others are saying is there is no point buying the latest and greatest as they start of at ridiculous prices and within 3months drop to almost half, so even if you could afford the best of the best you would be stupid to buy the newest bits out.
and yes you would buy the best you can afford but what me and others are saying is there is no point buying the latest and greatest as they start of at ridiculous prices and within 3months drop to almost half, so even if you could afford the best of the best you would be stupid to buy the newest bits out.
Really?timewilltell said:
You mean you and D_R like to take my comment out of context to make a stupid point?timewilltell said:
Either way new release products aren't always over priced and they certainly don't drop close to 50% within 3months. It is rare to have price drops over 30% within the first 18months of production unless new models, materials price drops or more efficient production procedures are introduced into the manufacturing process.
Finally people who buy the best is stupid? Really....... so people who are financially more stable with higher disposable incomes are stupid because they buy the best they can afford.......... nice logic guys, keep the lulz up, noob needs to work some of his curry flabs off with more face palms.
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