SK Rule out the window

[the whole cake]

U cant control behavior of people with an algorithm. ATB in theory is good, but in practice its a miserable failure. It overlooks many attributes of a human player. One example is the fact XYZ player has just spent 15 minutes working hard and being part of a team. Then hes forced to work against it. ATB = looks at numbers, but ignores funness.

ATB also creates unfair teams which cannot be fixed until next round: EG youre put onto axis team, and then allies are low on players. Youre not allowed to jump over to allies to beef up numbers.

Spawn killing is a form of spawn suppression. There are however many ways to do spawn suppression. If ur smart u can name a few.

Spawn protection config is how you will adjust spawn killing behavior.

The answer to this riddle is the spawn protection. If you don't want people being killed on spawn, make them invincible. Someone earlier posted the idea of the spawn protection that stays while you shoot. Have spawn protection disable when you move out of spawn or after 5secs. Will U shoot into a spawn point full of invincible enemies?

Cakes official opinion is that spawn protection is the answer. ATB is a failed attempt at automating moderation ....which like many biometric things....fails :)

(CAKE WINS)

 

[Trigger Happy]

Thing is, as far as I am aware, the spawn scripts are all in LUA script. We currently do not have LUA working on our server as it interferes with the bots. The ATB is fine if it works of K/D ratio. In pub, the most valuable players are those that can kill the opposition. Therefore, basing a balance on that is the easiest way to create an even playing field. Do you ever really see the likes of ulti, flekz, rose etc attempt the objective? No, they are here for kills as with most people on pub. This is why some sort of balance needs to be in place to ensure that these people aren't able to continually stack a map and push a team to spawn. Sure, it is fun for them, but not for the other team.

Cheers

 

[Flekzor]

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with sk Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with sk! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a Regular ET player defending a good mate, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that OZ Admin room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed OZ team, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must let us sk!!!

ROFL - Everyone take your hats off and bow, thats the best comment Ive read on here for ages, gota pay credit where credit is due :lol:

TO FUCKING RIGHT AND IT MAKES PERFECT SENCE LET US SK!

 

[Antagonist]

rose tells off flecks and I when we go for objective, shes a savage pirate

 

[Frogma]

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with sk Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with sk! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a Regular ET player defending a good mate, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that OZ Admin room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed OZ team, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must let us sk!!!

Lol thankyou, Johnnie L. Cochran.

 

[Sunncaeks]

But Chewbacca does not live on Endor.

So no. >;D

 

[Antagonist]

ahahaha the Chewbacca defense... worked for OJ! o wait..

 

[SkankyMoe]

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with sk Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with sk! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a Regular ET player defending a good mate, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that OZ Admin room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed OZ team, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must let us sk!!!

Lol thankyou, Johnnie L. Cochran.

Ahh disapointed Frog, your the master of all forum posts, I expected you to top chewy and wookies :twisted:

 

[The Admiral]

But Chewbacca does not live on Endor.

So no. >;D

Kasshyk ftw. Who doesn't want to live in a tree up to several hundred feet above the ground?

 

[i0nwr1t3r]

A trial run of SK should be allowed if you don't have a problem with ATB by K/D ratio making adjustments ,say 3 or 4 times a map at random intervals(maps are 30 mins long on average)
Turning off self packing for any med above 2 stars would make a significant difference & / or requiring 3/4 full server with active players(not ppl afk longer than 2 mins or specs) to unlock self packing.
Lowering charge on F.ops & Soldier to reduce long range bombardment of spawn (not sure how snipers would be affected,maybe having sniper rifle over-heat like sten after say,2 shots in a row?).
But spawn shield should allow you to return fire without losing shield until time limit kicks in (this gets exploited by pro sk'ers who makes noobs panic & shoot,then waste 'em).
Perhaps no primary weapons inside oppositions fixed spawn, but spawns that may be captured,anything you can get away with.

But you will need to make some sort of visible announcement at the start of every map or when a player connects to server so they are aware this is a trial & not the standard,noobs who are not regulars visiting clan IP & get SK'd are not likely to return if they have a bad experience & speaking from personal experience, "Almost Never Visit The Official Webpage Of IP They Are Visiting" so don't know about current trials & events.

But they do remember what their gameplay experience was like on a particular server & will or will not recommend it to other ppl they know based on that experience & you can lose potential players just to please a few.

Cheers

 

[Overmars]

I've already said previously that I'd be happy for SK rules to go, if we can move whoever needs moving to whatever team, at whatever time, to make it a fairer and better game for all. Without complaint.

 

[Hicksy]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... awn%20Kill

 

[Antagonist]

1. Spawn Kill

In a multiplayer combat game (particularly a First Person Shooter) to kill another player as they spawn. This is dishonorable because the player is unable to react before they are dead or have taken significant damage, and depending on the game may be weaponless or inadequately armed. Often abreviated to SK.

a) You have more an ample time to "react" and move in et with multiple exits.
b) Spawn shield before use to be like 6 seconds or whatever, once again more then enough time to "react" and prepare + u completely eliminate the ability to SK (by that terminology) with spawn shield.

c) You can choose a panzer or a newbnade to crush an SK'r so you are "adequately armed" to combat it''

and not much of the SK's everyone is going on about actually happen in spawn, it happens in these dedicated "no go zones" near spawn which causes all the trouble :S

 

[phatbass]

im with ulti just put the shield back on so you dont lose it when you shoot and set the spawn invul to 4-5 secs sk shouldnt be to much of a prob then

 

[matilda]

... if you don't have a problem with ATB by K/D ratio making adjustments ,say 3 or 4 times a map at random intervals

I have a problem with that. Seen it happen and it really is terrible. :evil:
Players start complaining and eventually it's switched off (as pb should be :lol: )

 

[i0nwr1t3r]

... if you don't have a problem with ATB by K/D ratio making adjustments ,say 3 or 4 times a map at random intervals

I have a problem with that. Seen it happen and it really is terrible. :evil:
Players start complaining and eventually it's switched off (as pb should be :lol: )

It'll take quite a bit of trial & error to get the balance right but the principle is to avoid stacked teams overwhelming low skilled players for entire duration of a map (5 mins,yeah no probs,but 20 mins makes 'em ragequit or leave for good).

PB has a few(hundred maybe) hiccups , but it's there for the right reasons,so let's leave that for a new thread & not hijack this one.

As to making SK permanent, well I may be fairly ignorant of the mechanics of this but then it may as well be a Pro & not Pub server,anyone have a different view on this or care to elaborate what the differences are between the two?

This next part should be in a new thread I think but here goes.

Does anyone know how the ATB settings are calculated & far more importantly,how often? & could you give an example of how it executes this in game? I think there will be a lot of ppl who don't know how it works (myself included) & will be either unwilling to offer an opinion & may reach a conclusion based on speculation of what it might do rather than based on any fact.

Does an ATB shuffle still recognize the number of kills you have made over the period of the whole map or does it start anew when a player is shifted to the opposition & will it record a death for being shuffled? ( that could be a genuine issue for players with good stats per map).

@ Cake, you do have a valid point about ATB affecting a players sense of achievement or fun if suddenly shifted to the opposite side (as well as knowing details of opposition strategy,mortar & mine placement. etc.) but I seriously doubt any of the pro Sk'ers genuinely feel challenged by the ppl they SK which is why they do it in the first place.so my point is this,if you feel a handful of duels or situations that challenge your skill (including multiple combatants)as a player per map is your thing ,ATB might annoy you but shouldn't pose any problems in theory.

On the other hand if stats are what's driving your gameplay & a penalty against your stats for shifting teams is not your issue,that would suggest you are either not finding the game challenging(ie. doing objectives or no opponents at your level) or are not interested in a challenge in the first place (SK'ing noobs for entertainment or you want to be on the same team as your friends) but I do realize that a number of players don't like working with noobs because they don't work in co-ordination with other players / don't know the maps & they tend to TK a lot more through lack of refined skills in regard to lead placement (ie. ending your killspree with a panzer TK) or just not resupplying team on demand can be a frustration in itself.

Removing SK?

Good for high-skill players (keeps it interesting) , Terrible for low-skill players unless the teams are mixed evenly for duration of a map (that is BOBBLIN rare & usually requires enforcement) & noobs is where your future players will come from (regardless of the game,there will always be noobs) whereas with the exception of a few,high-skill & hardcore players,they will eventually move on to different games or just lose interest.

Sorry if that just sounded like a tobacco campaign.

But give it a go & if it's possible to monitor sever numbers & duration they stay on the server over the entire trial period,that might give you an indication of whether the noobs are being turned off by the new gameplay & if it's affecting your regular client base but you will have to put a temporary embargo on aliasing to reflect true numbers of clients connecting (unless you can log mac addresses perhaps?) as opposed to same players using multiple aliases to artificially inflate numbers (if players say it's great but your seeing fewer players on the server,maybe having it as a promotional / seasonal event or on a separate IP).

i0n

 

[blusky]

Spawn killing isn't dishonorable. If you think otherwise you're deluded.

The main problem I find that is if ATB moves me I get FRUSTRATED with my team and how bad they are. It's impossible to make progress when half your team is in their own spawn/dumb places leaning for a cheap rnade/panzer shot. Then when running around you run into xfire from 5 meds and you have no backup...Nothing worse than being a one-man team.

Usually players that cry out "SKer!!!!!!" Are the first to SK themselves when the opportunity arises! It's just that these players are normally pretty bad and therefore do a whole lot more crying than SKing. If the rule wasn't in place from the start then the server would still be running smoothly but the NO SK has sheltered players and given them a deluded sense of how the game actually works.

Obviously i'd vote YES to removing the rule because I like munching noobs but you have to think about the MANY players that don't visit the forums, what happens to their vote? Most would vote NO to it being removed.

There are a few bad points with SK being removed, for instance:
On some maps such as oasis - after allies have blown the wall - a mortar and field OP can pretty much stop ALL allies from passing through the wall area.

On goldrush allies can pin axis in their spawn far too easily through numerous methods, even the best player can't get out.

Mortar ruins fun on pubs.

 

[Hicksy]

very unbias and well thought post blusky address issues from both parties including the ones that dont even use the forum.

have to admit i forgot about them lol

 

[Antagonist]

perhaps a trial of no heavy weapons/arty sk?
yanks seem pretty keen on this..

 

[RyAn.]

refering to blusky's post, if the sk rule is completely gone some of the maps are going to be a pain with heavy weps just blasting you as you come out of the spawn

But there is a solution XD we could have no spawn killing with heavy weps eg panzer morter and arty ONLY! but for smg sk is allowed for all the people who are good and have the urge to sk :)

so
No heavy weapons, panzer, morter, mg, and artillery in the sk boundery of the specific map,

SMG sk is allowed, im pretty sure this will work out better then completly getting rid of the sk rule!!